A rifle carried into the Civil War had a coffee grinder built into the stock.

0:00 Pamala Us. but yeah, so like we said, Steven, we're gonna kind of jump in, and then you'll hear us naturally close out the conversation, but don't hang up. we'll just stop the recording at that point, and then we'll start a new one for some of your outro lines. but that's it. Okay, are we ready? Everyone feeling good, got energy? Excited to talk about this today.

0:27 Eva Very, very excited. Can't wait.

0:27 Steven Excited.

0:32 Pamala Alright, okay, let's get into it. my gosh. Hello, hello, Stevens. Welcome, welcome, welcome. All right. Yeah. So what is it that you know too much about? Tell us what you know too much about.

0:36 Eva Steven.

0:41 Eva So happy to have you here.

0:43 Steven Happy to be here.

0:48 Steven I know too much about the third wave of coffee specifically in New York City. Do you guys want to hear about it? There's waves. There's waves. We might even be in the fifth one. You guys want to catch up?

0:56 Eva There's waves. There's waves. What?

0:57 Pamala Yeah, I was like, there's waves Yeah and we're in the third one.

1:05 Eva Shit. All right.

1:06 Pamala I'm really behind. I'm very far behind. I I'm gonna have to get this education right now.

1:11 Eva Yeah, let's go.

1:12 Steven So should we start at the first wave? Do you guys want to work front to back? okay, so these things are also open to some some debate or some some dialogue, right? everybody agrees, almost everybody agrees, that there are at least three waves, right? The first wave of coffee.

1:15 Eva Please. I do.

1:17 Pamala Yeah.

1:36 Steven So there's the prehistory of coffee, right? Coffee is something, is a beverage that's thousands of years old and was discovered by a a goat herder in Ethiopia, made its way through the Enlightenment. and what what they've sort of established as the first wave is this sort of like first commercial wave of coffee, in which sort of like convenience at home is what defined that. So that's when people were buying like.

1:45 Eva Mm-hmm.

2:06 Steven Pre-roasted coffee, packaged up, like Maxwell House, like instant coffee, like sort of industrialized. if you talk to your grandparents or if you look back, people used to roast coffee in their homes, like or on their farms. during the Civil War, there I forget the manufacturer, but there was a a

2:10 Eva Like Maxwell House era? Okay.

2:15 Pamala Okay.

2:33 Steven a rifle brought into the civil war, which actually had a coffee grinder in the stock of the rifle. So like we were, yeah, I yeah. So, you know, we were like coffee was a very like before before artisan was a thing, it was like everybody was just drinking coffee and it was a part of sort of like culinary tradition. And then you know, sort of like industrialization happened and that's sort of the the sort of kicking point.

2:40 Eva Stop it.

2:40 Pamala What?

2:55 Eva Mm-hmm.

2:56 Pamala Okay.

3:03 Steven the starting point for the first wave where you're getting you're getting packaged goods at home, you're getting advertisements for coffee. I know a lot of it had to do with, well, sort of side to this, like the the advent of the the tea bag had to do with being able to produce a cup of tea in the time a commercial break took, right? right?

3:13 Eva Mm-hmm.

3:28 Pamala Mm-hmm.

3:28 Eva Love that.

3:30 Steven So it's it was like so and that's all sort of like the first wave. a lot of that still exists. You know, you can go to the supermarket and get your brick of pre ground Maxwell House or Bustello or whatever it is. and then

3:34 Eva Mm.

3:45 Eva Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

3:50 Steven Things progressed. We started drinking coffee outside of our houses. And this is sort of the the birth of the second wave.

3:50 Steven This is like I think we call it like a sixty, like nineteen sixties to nineteen eighties was like the high the heyday nineteen nineties of second wave coffee, which was really

3:50 Steven Hang on, let me let me just

3:50 Steven I wanna I don't wanna misquote something. Am I allowed to do that? Okay, cool.

4:27 Eva Yeah, no worries. Yep. Of course.

4:28 Pamala Yeah.

4:28 Pamala Misquote, yes, but also look it up, yes.

4:34 Eva Yeah.

4:34 Steven Yeah, yeah, yeah. there was there was something that that I had written down,

4:42 Steven Gotcha. Okay. So here here is the dis d defining term that that when you go back and you start reading about these things is that when second wave coffee shop started to open, we were still using this sort of like to to deromanticize a a product. Like this sort of like industrial, this this like

4:54 Eva Mm.

5:07 Steven coffee product that wasn't as carefully considered as as we're considering coffee in terms of you know growing and production and preparation now. and it was more about the sort of experience, right? Like that sort of coffee house experience. think of right, the ritual and you think of like the like the sort of birth of the third place or hippie coffee shops with comfy couches and books to read.

5:23 Eva And the ritual of it. Right. Yeah.

5:35 Eva Pillows on the floor. Yeah. Love it.

5:35 Pamala Yeah.

5:37 Steven Exactly. also the introduction of drink names like cappuccino and latte, like they they then sort of work into the the sort of like you know the coffee menu or the coffee experience. spe well specialty like specialty is its own thing, right? though the right, so there's

5:50 Eva Mm-hmm.

5:50 Pamala Specialty.

5:56 Eva Separate.

6:02 Steven To focus on that for a second, when so coffee is an agricultural product, it is traded as a commodity just as wheat. which again, not to keep reusing the term artisan, but isn't something that's considered in terms of sort of nuance or in terms of terroir or or sort of like expression of a particular plant or somebody's technique.

6:23 Eva Mm-hmm.

6:30 Steven That later comes in the third wave of coffee, where we start to evaluate, you know, we start to taste coffees at the origin of where they're being harvested and scoring them and finding this like score the same way, you know, this is very parallel to the way sort of like wine is evaluated, scoring it on a scale of like one to one hundred. And all of those components.

6:36 Eva Mm.

6:55 Eva The scoring sorry, Stephen, the scoring. Is that that's part of the third wave?

7:01 Steven Scoring so it it very much plays into the third wave, right? It it like it happened like these things, it's it's a great question. because I like my my specific thought in third wave is in terms of the retail experience, but you're you're correct is that the the product experience for the third wave is happening at origin, which means that people are

7:05 Eva Okay.

7:20 Pamala Mm.

7:28 Eva Mm-hmm.

7:31 Steven Growing and processing it more carefully. And the roasters, and the the the original sort of third wave roasters are are still around today, you know, like intelligentsia and stumpdown. You have people like Jeff Watts, who was like the the sort of architect of the the sort of direct trade model of coffee where you're going to farms and you're talking to farmers and and you're you're developing these relationships that

7:43 Eva Mm-hmm.

8:00 Steven That are about growing a product that tastes more delicious for everybody to consume. and the idea is also that they can then charge a higher price per cup than the commodity price, which was fixed by, you know, the the market.

8:05 Eva Mm.

8:16 Eva Right.

8:17 Pamala And does the scoring and does the scoring work into this? What is the s what is the the scoring element and what are they scoring?

8:25 Steven So so the scoring element there there's a threshold which I believe is is eighty three points, right? And when you're evaluating coffee by taste, you're you're scoring it and it's you know, there there is a whole scorecard based on on what you're tasting.

8:41 Eva Who gets to decide the score?

8:43 Pamala Yeah.

8:45 Steven well, good question. There there is a there is a certification which is not necessary called a Q grader. And those are the people who are the ones like certified to taste. However, if you wanted to start roasting coffee, you could buy green coffee, roast it yourself, and start to evaluate it. whether that then becomes a career path for you and you become a a green coffee buyer.

9:10 Eva God.

9:15 Eva Yeah no. Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

9:15 Steven is is sort of like up to you and whether whether that just becomes a hobby you you can do this and roasting in that case yeah I know it's it well again it's like it's it it's it all plays in together and ends up on on you know on a bench in a cafe but so when you're roasting to evaluate for a score it's not

9:26 Eva I have so many questions. So many questions.

9:36 Eva Right.

9:44 Steven You're you're roasting in a very straightforward way. You're you're sort of doing it without any personal flair so that you can just evaluate the taste of the coffee and not have your hand be a part of that. The brewing the way you would then brew the coffee that you're sample roasting is also then done in a way which that your hand has no no sort of impact in the in the final cup.

10:08 Pamala So is the scoring really just for your you and your comrades to like dandy about and talk about, or is the scoring actually affect the pricing or what you can say about the coffee?

10:21 Steven Great question. it it's both, right? Because that score which

10:21 Steven i is like not objective, is not subjective, I should say, determines the price, right? however

10:41 Eva Interesting.

10:43 Steven You you don't necessarily like if you're buying it, right? If you're if you're gonna taste all these different coffees and you're looking for something specific, you're you're going to be looking for coffees in in a a certain point range, right? And and it depends what part of this process you're in. If you're if you are at the point in your sort of green green buying journey.

11:01 Eva Mm-hmm.

11:11 Steven that you're actually on a farm and you're you're grabbing samples and sample roasting at the farm. Nobody's scoring this before you. And it's really up to your sort of palate and and the your history of of tasting, which we call cupping. it's e every like one door leads to the next, right?

11:26 Eva Wait wait, what?

11:27 Pamala Ha ha.

11:32 Eva We we have to hear about cupping.

11:34 Steven So and this this is where coffee tastes like it sort of like seems to take itself too seriously. But when you when you taste yes and this is why we're here. so when you're tasting wine, it's a wine tasting, right? and the thing about a wine tasting is you're tasting a finished product, right? And

11:41 Eva All all the best things do.

11:47 Eva Yes.

11:51 Pamala Uh-huh.

11:56 Eva Mm-hmm.

11:59 Steven How how it ends up is real like what what's in in your glass is really all that matters. Coffee cupping, which makes it its way into the retail environment as like a fun pastime or fun way we can spend an afternoon or or go to a local roaster and pay ten bucks and go to this cupping, is like kind of a

11:59 Steven Not not like it's not actually part of it's it's to recreate a part of the process. Whereas the cupping, which sounds very, you know, w which is like sort of laughable, is actually yeah, is actually that's what's happening at origin to evaluate the qualities in the raw coffee product, right? And you know, there's there's two things you're tasting for. You're tasting for

12:36 Eva Strange. Yeah.

12:54 Steven the nuance that you want to bring out in a coffee, you know, you're you're seeing like if it if it's got enough acidity to sort of match the experience you're you're looking to deliver. You're also looking for faults. You know, you're looking to see if it was badly processed or maybe there there was a sort of like fungus that that plagued the crop that's that's present in the in the cup. so there's two things you're tasting for.

13:19 Eva Yeah.

13:19 Pamala Mm.

13:22 Steven All of this is like this is all an integral part of specialty coffee, right? And then part of third wave coffee and the waves that come afterwards. and so

13:22 Steven how like t how this plays into like the very New York scene and where like why I think third wave coffee in New York is so interesting is you very much have this this sort of like global this this global industry of trying to to differentiate a product in a very like sort of artisan way, in a in a way that treats the farmers more fairly, in a way that like creates an experience that's that's like

14:02 Pamala Mm-hmm.

14:05 Steven far more engaging and and opens a whole world of of coffee and drinks to the customer from second wave because second wave was really based on this like sort of like european experience of like the Viennese cafe and and the the sort of like the place of the cafe whereas third wave we're we're sort of looking outside of that. And it's like I always draw the parallel to to sort of like

14:16 Eva Mm.

14:33 Steven Tomatoes, right? Like we are all so excited about like a farmer's market salad and knowing like, I've got these Long Island tomatoes, they're delicious. And coffee really is the only industry I know of where it just keeps following that supply chain to the seed, and they're like, hey, listen, like not only do I like you know this Ethiopian coffee, but I like it from this region and this farm, and I really just want this plant varietal.

14:33 Steven and it delivers l all the way to the cup. you see the the birthplace of this or the sort of like where this starts to change is two thousand one New York City, you know,

15:15 Eva What happened?

15:16 Pamala Yeah.

15:17 Steven Well, we you start to that's where cafes start to take coffee really seriously. and and we would see, you know, there were some Scandinavian cafes that started to do this. the it's really like the roasters in the US like Intelligentsia, like Counterculture, like Stumptown, who were creating these products, who were going to the origins and and finding these coffees. and they made their way to New York City.

15:23 Eva okay.

15:47 Steven to these cafes. And from 2001 to 2009 was this sort of like very bracketed time frame where coffee had not yet gone to this like

15:47 Steven sort of omnipresent state that it's in now where we can go into like any neighborhood and every block is gonna have three or four or five options to get like a specialty coffee experience. But back in those days, like you you could get first or second wave coffee in the places where, you know, a New Yorker would expect to get a coffee, which was a diner or coffee cart, or, you know, there were obviously a couple Starbucks at that point.

16:14 Eva Yeah.

16:30 Pamala So does Frappuccino play into this?

16:33 Eva Yeah, where does the where where does the Frappuccino sit? And where d yeah. I remember Coffee Connection from Boston, which I belie if memory serves, they were the originator of the what became the Frappuccino, and they were like really bent out of shape about the way that Starbucks came in and co opted the name without appropriate credit, maybe. I might be misremembering.

16:33 Steven How how does the property note play into this?

16:38 Pamala Yeah, okay, also so what

17:03 Steven Well, you you're you're half right. So it yeah, it takes place it takes place in Boston. it's George Howell who started that, who created the Fap Frappuccino, but he he got all the credit, he got the paycheck most importantly, and he sold the Frappuccino to Starbucks, who then changed it and turned it into something very different. But

17:05 Eva Half right, as usual, typical.

17:21 Eva He did. Okay.

17:27 Eva And was he coffee connection or I'm just making that up? Maybe. Probably. Yeah.

17:29 Steven I think you're correct. I think it was called I forget the name of his shop, but I think you're you're in the right ballpark.

17:34 Eva Yeah. They had a beautiful logo.

17:39 Steven And still ex so George Howell then became George Howell and is like a really wonderful third wave roaster still in business with a couple cafes in Boston. some cafes in New York use his coffee. so has sort of like bridged that gap from second to third wave and sort of

17:53 Eva Mm-hmm.

18:00 Pamala Interesting.

18:02 Steven Maybe is like, you know, the most famous part of the the second wave at this point with the Frappuccino. Yeah.

18:08 Eva Right? Yeah. And this the Starbucks logo used to have nipples, right? I remember that. I'm just I can't I cannot conjure any other fun facts about coffee. Yeah. The nips. what do we I don't want to get off topic, but I can't help myself. where is the the blank street of it all? Like are they just are they like the hell pit fourth wave?

18:13 Pamala Yeah.

18:15 Steven Yeah.

18:17 Pamala Let's get to the really important parts.

18:37 Eva Of coffee, or are they just like the darker side of the third wave, or are they less evil than I think they are? But I see mm what feels like millions of them on the street, and I know their product cannot be as good as the five surrounding mom and pop's. But I'm just curious your perspective.

18:59 Steven Well

19:03 Steven It's it's great. It's it's a it's a very great observation. And so to to sort of get back to the third wave and then we'll get into the the the blank street answer is that you had the third wave in New York, right? And if we're if in my book that's two thousand one to two thousand nine, right?

19:25 Eva Mm-hmm.

19:26 Pamala Okay.

19:29 Steven As far as I'm concerned, the and I think everybody would agree on this, where that changes is in 2010, in early 2010, Blue Bottle Coffee opened in Williamsburg, Brooklyn. And

19:48 Eva Yep, I remember that.

19:49 Pamala Yep, I remember that.

19:50 Steven They were the first that they so from 2001 to 2009, all of these third wave cafes were locally owned, right? and you had the you had Joe Coffee, which is still around, you had Gimme Coffee, which has moved out of the boroughs but went back to Ithaca. So they're New York State, Grumpy Coffee, which is still around

20:00 Eva Mm.

20:10 Pamala Mm-hmm.

20:14 Eva Another great logo. So good.

20:19 Steven Can can I take one call quickly from my father? Do you guys mind? Sorry.

20:22 Pamala Yeah. Yes, of course. Priority. that's what gives me a moment to look up the coffee shop I

20:22 Eva Yes, of course. Of course. my gosh. Yeah.

20:26 Steven Amen.

20:26 Steven You okay? Can I call you back? Bye. I'll explain that later. I apologize. yeah. But so but so you know, you have Joe Koff, you have Grumpy. Grumpy was around back then. Such a great logo. when I opened

20:30 Eva my sweat.

20:36 Eva please don't.

20:38 Pamala You don't even need to.

20:46 Eva Grumpy. Such a good logo. Yeah.

20:56 Steven I was the last of that sort of chapter, right? So I I get to be the last, the last guy at the party. And that was in 2009. That was August of 2009. And then early 2010, Blue Bottle opened and they had a brown craft paper logo. So despite the fact that they'd come to New York with Google's money, the craft paper threw everybody off and everybody who went to

21:02 Eva Yeah.

21:15 Pamala Mm-hmm.

21:15 Eva Yes.

21:25 Steven To Blue Bottle at that time was like, this this absolutely, but we all knew better. Like those of us in the industry knew better. And at that same time, then you had Stumptown open. Stumptown was from Portland and would soon take on tons of investment. And that sort of, you know, that really I think signifies the end of the third wave. And specifically this very like sort of like Renaissance period where you had

21:28 Eva Artisan.

21:32 Eva Yeah. Sure.

21:49 Eva Okay.

21:54 Steven Independent cafes in New York where the product itself, where coffee was something that was focused on and celebrated. I will forever remember that time because people would walk into coffee shops, which sold nothing but coffee, and they would come from you know across the borough or across whatever and walk into coffee shops and just say, like, do you do you have coffee? I heard you have coffee. And it's like

22:16 Eva Yeah.

22:22 Steven Like what a crazy thing. But of course, like they were looking for this very specific, like, you know, this this sort of like expertly prepared beverage and not this commodity thing that they could have gotten, you know, somewhere else.

22:27 Pamala Yeah.

22:32 Eva Yeah.

22:36 Pamala I feel like that's still very much alive like in in Tokyo. Like having going in and having a very specific, really well-made coffee, it's all they do and they take such pride and care and consideration in it.

22:40 Eva Mm.

22:41 Steven Funny.

22:50 Steven Yeah. Well, I I hear I hear this about, you know, everything that they do in Tokyo, so I don't doubt it. Yeah.

22:56 Pamala True, of course. True. Very true. so my question is how did you get into this? Like it's so you you mentioned that you had a coffee shop, but like how how did you get into loving and knowing and and being all things coffee?

22:56 Eva That's true. Yeah. Yeah.

23:14 Steven What like what a great question. Can I finish the the Blank Street question? 'Cause it and then and then rewind a little bit. So if two if two thousand ten is the end of the third wave, right?

23:19 Pamala Yes, of course.

23:19 Eva Sure. Yeah. Yeah.

23:30 Steven Where things get to be a sort of point of contention is whether there are now four waves or five waves, right? And some people argue that there is a fourth wave where coffee went from focusing on broader broader sort of growing regions and brewing methods and hyper focus focusing on like plant varietals, on hand brewing, on these like overly sort of like Yeah, like

23:56 Eva Hand brewing. That's like without a machine.

24:00 Steven So e exactly. And so you you would go into the well, you know, like the whole pour over the thing. Exactly. and I I I used to think that this was a very correct chapter to isolate. I think that like as time goes on and we see it sort of like f diminish in terms of its like relative place in the timeline. I I don't know that it was actually

24:04 Eva Laborious. Damn. Still okay.

24:04 Pamala Yeah, they crank.

24:30 Steven worth its own sort of like epoch. But the next chapter which everybody agrees on, certainly, is when things start getting built to scale. Right. And that is then, you know, that fourth or fifth wave that we're talking about. And that's where Blank Street comes in is at no point do you look at one Blank Street store and and feel like, this is this is it. This is this like

24:46 Eva Sure.

24:54 Steven mom and pop business with this like craft paper, these hand printed cups or whatever it is, it's like, this is built for speed. This is built to exist in every neighborhood or on every corner. and that, you know, I think it's interesting in New York City now is like it all sort of coexists at the same time. And so if you want to find those sort of like pieces of the third wave renaissance that still exist, they're they're there.

24:57 Eva Thoughtful.

25:05 Eva Mm-hmm.

25:14 Eva Yeah.

25:23 Steven You know, if you want to be part of the sort of like

25:23 Eva Mm-hmm.

25:28 Steven the the machine that's as as thought out and as well planned as possible, that's that's there as well. If you want to find second wave and first wave, sure. You know, and it's like so this is, you know, I have an opinion which is the best wave or or, you know, which era I'm I'm going to sort of linger in, but it's it's like it's most fun that that everything is sort of here at the same time.

25:47 Eva Yeah.

25:53 Eva Yeah. Well, as long as there's room for both, I I think it's okay, but

25:54 Pamala What?

25:58 Pamala Well I was also gonna I was also gonna say, what do you think the sixth wave is? Robots? Robots making coffee?

26:02 Eva Yeah.

26:04 Steven Yeah. I mean, you know, or where it just goes so backwards, right? It's it's either like robots or like, you know, the the most convenient possible. It's just gonna be like

26:14 Eva Just like into the chip in your Yeah.

26:15 Steven Yeah, I don't know.

26:17 Pamala Main lining.

26:19 Steven Yeah, exactly. but so your your question then is like why why why do I think it's interesting?

26:28 Pamala Yeah, like why had you get into this?

26:29 Eva Yeah, how did how did you get here? How did how did you become such a how how did coffee begin its flow through your bloodstream as something you care more about?

26:38 Steven So yeah, you know, I think what hooked me originally was that I've n I never started drinking, right? and so I've ne I up until I started drinking coffee, I never I was never regular anywhere, right? It's not like I could go to my local and get a beer and sit down and have a place to hang out. and coffee was the first time that

26:38 Steven And I didn't start drinking coffee into my twenties until I was in my twenties, which is a funny quirk at this point. Yeah. but that that was the first time where I would start to walk into places and people would be like, like, yeah. And I was like, I get it. Like this is, you know, and that plays back into that sort of third place of like you're running around the city, you're working, you're you're not you're not gonna be home for another 12 hours, but you have this moment where people are gonna, you know.

27:09 Eva That is unique.

27:09 Pamala Same. I'm the same.

27:13 Eva Really?

27:18 Eva Steven. Yeah. Or

27:33 Steven Remember your name, you can sit down for a second. What's that? Your commun Yeah, totally. Yeah.

27:35 Pamala It's your cheers. It's your cheers. Your cheers.

27:36 Eva Your community that you're a part of. Mm-hmm.

27:42 Steven Then it was on it's all downhill from there.

27:45 Pamala Yeah, so and then you decide to open a coffee shop because you were into this?

27:49 Steven Yeah, yeah.

27:51 Pamala Okay.

27:51 Eva Just like that. Amazing. No big deal.

27:56 Steven Made it made sense.

27:58 Pamala Is there any coffee that you're like absolutely not, whether it be a taste, a a place, a type, is there anything that you just like, nope, we do not do that?

28:11 Steven As a consumer or as a as somebody who makes coffee?

28:15 Pamala Yeah.

28:16 Eva Both.

28:17 Steven You know, as as a consumer, yes. And the you know, because coffee is so pervasive at this point and it like it's so available, it's it's expensive, it's it's not as expensive as it should be, right? Like it's they're like they're

28:35 Eva Deeply.

28:39 Eva Really? Say that again. Steven, sorry, rewind please. Why should it be more expensive?

28:40 Pamala Really? It's so expensive. Yeah.

28:43 Steven So I I know. Well like when you look at all of the people involved in the process and how underpaid, you know, the sort of like producers are and like it it's really something that warrants a higher price at origin to to better pay farmers, to better pay farm workers. you know, and that you the parallel again is wine is like it's not crazy

28:56 Eva Mm-hmm.

29:12 Steven to at this point you're you're paying eighteen dollars for a glass of wine and it's still less than five dollars for a glas for like a mug of coffee. And that I like somewhere in the middle I think is is correct, right?

29:21 Eva Mm.

29:27 Eva Maybe. That's gonna have to be like the eighth wave. Jeeze.

29:30 Steven Yeah, I know. Well, as like as commodity prices increase and as coffee has to cost more because they're like the the market has just said it that way, the specialty market has also increased its price to like astronomical prices. and then it's sort of on us as the as the coffee industry to you know

29:42 Eva Mm-hmm.

29:59 Steven provide the value that that the price that the necessary price is set. It's not just that like, it's expensive. Here's your $10 coffee. It's like, right. But then it's sort of like back on the coffee industry to focus and prepare things well and make sure that that $10 coffee tastes like a $10 coffee. Right. And what I won't drink is the the sort of like middle ground of thoughtless coffees. So if it's a matter of me

30:12 Eva Mm.

30:17 Eva Yeah.

30:27 Eva Mm.

30:29 Steven going to the local deli and spending two dollars on a sort of like first wave cup of of coffee that's been sitting around for a few hours. I love that. You know, I'm totally happy with that. If it's a matter of going somewhere to get a that ten dollar whatever it is, like single origin, you know, single varietal washed like Colombian, I

30:41 Eva Yeah. Sure.

30:58 Steven I'm there for that. But if it's you know, something that is expensive, that nobody has cared about, that's been made on dirty equipment by somebody who doesn't have the time to smile or interact with you as as like the third wave experience sort of set forward that it's like we're all in this together. I don't want that and will sort of default to a Celsius at this

30:59 Eva Mm.

31:19 Pamala Mm-hmm.

31:27 Steven at this point in the summer and would rather just go grab some caffeine somewhere and there you go. And like so so that's that's where I I am in my own journey.

31:38 Eva You're you you touched on something I think really interesting, Steven, which is that it it's it's okay for the price to be higher than than not if there's some thought and care, right? It doesn't just have to be speed and efficiency that's giving you the higher price, right? You being a part of that cycle with some

31:38 Pamala Will you

32:07 Eva Thoughtfulness, some care, somebody who will give you a smile, it d it does really impact in a in a substantive way.

32:18 Steven And you know, hospitality and coffee have always had this like tough relationship. You know, I always, you know, I always felt that coffee could be a more sort of like welcoming environment for everybody. And there are times that cafes are that way for people. And I think that certainly my experience in coffee shops recently is that it's not

32:26 Eva Mm.

32:47 Steven It's not the norm to have that sort of like community feeling, or that you know, you're there to be in a third place, or that somebody is taking their time to brew a cup of coffee. It's like the that sort of like convenience aspect of being on every corner is coloring the hospitality side of it. And it's very much a a sort of like

32:55 Eva Yeah.

33:11 Steven You know, you you are treated as as a customer who's only interested in convenience. And that's like I don't think that's the way forward.

33:19 Pamala Okay, interesting. I f so speaking of that's not the way forward, what would you how if somebody's into coffee and they don't know where to start, what would you suggest? Like how do they go down this rabbit hole with you? How do they get there get there?

33:20 Eva Yeah.

33:37 Eva Yeah.

33:37 Steven You know, it's the you know everybody I think starts drinking coffee with milk and sugar. And then I think the progression is less sugar, less milk, less sugar, less milk until you end up at black coffee, right? Or espresso and you know, again, that back back on the theme of like one door leading to the next is

33:53 Eva Or espresso or something.

33:56 Pamala Mm.

34:03 Steven It is also argued that espresso as a beverage is a distraction, and really we should all be focusing on black filter coffee because that eliminates the sort of hand of the barista from occluding what the the farmers are doing. So a lot of a lot of what this comes down to is like you're looking to to best present an agricultural product, right? And it's sort of like back to the the salad sort of

34:03 Steven comparison is like you you're gonna take that that tomato and you're not gonna roast it in a sauce. Like you're these heirloom tomatoes, you're sort of just gonna throw on a salad with some salt and then everybody's gonna fawn over how great this tomato is. And you're looking for that same sort of experience with coffee.

34:42 Eva Mm-hmm.

34:50 Eva Purity.

34:51 Pamala And you're saying that you can't get that in espresso, it's too condensed.

34:55 Steven Yeah, it's well, not not necessarily that it's too condensed, but so often the you know, maybe the machine is is not calibrated correctly or the barista isn't s is as experienced.

35:08 Pamala you're not getting the full experience if it's an espresso.

35:08 Eva Doing it right.

35:10 Steven And so you have your you you have two variables, the the product itself, whether or not that is like a really well-grown, well-processed, well-roasted coffee, and then you're meeting the sort of hand of the barista, who may or may not be doing a really great job. Yeah, or care, et cetera. So really filter coffee, and filter coffee is is is my favorite. So if I'm telling somebody to go down this this sort of rabbit hole, I think

35:23 Eva Care.

35:26 Eva Yeah.

35:40 Steven Find the find your your path of least resistance. Like if you're always gonna be a latte person, there you know there's going to be a a different path for you. But I think the correct way is to like get into black coffee. Excuse me. Start start I'm thirsty. Mm-hmm. And and it's about like

35:45 Eva Mm.

36:03 Eva Start with the basics. Celsius break.

36:09 Steven Finding different brew methods, understanding how that maybe changes the coffee, going through different origins and working on your palate until it all starts to come into focus. Yeah.

36:15 Eva Mm-hmm.

36:20 Pamala Awesome. Well, thank you. I love that. That's great. Well, thank you for taking us down this rabbit hole. I think that's a really nice way to sort of wrap up our conversation today, Stephen. Thank you so much. Yeah. I feel like we're gonna have to have a part two because I have questions about the six-wave, I have questions about rituals, because I know a couple of Italians who would not take coffee to go. So

36:21 Eva I love that.

36:34 Eva Absolutely, yeah. Of course.

36:35 Steven Thanks for having me.

36:48 Eva Ha ha ha ha.

36:49 Pamala some people don't do not believe in coffee to go. It is a sitting down situation. I have so many things that we need to like follow up on.

36:52 Eva Yeah.

36:53 Steven They're not they're not wrong. Yeah. Yeah, yeah, yeah.

37:00 Pamala Also, I was in advertising and my father did not believe I was in advertising unless I have done a Folgers commercial and I never got to do a Folgers commercial. So apparently that entire part of my career is gone. Hardcore stir-in Folgers coffee.

37:08 Eva Bang.

37:08 Eva Yeah. Folders people call us.

37:16 Eva Ha ha ha.

37:16 Steven Yeah. Still around. I I had some Monday.

37:22 Pamala my gosh.

37:22 Eva Folders?

37:23 Steven Yeah, yeah. Yeah. And so this like back to I I'm not I'm not above it and it like there there's a place for everything.

37:25 Pamala Dang.

37:25 Pamala Yeah.

37:31 Eva Yeah. No, time and a place. All right. Well, I think that's it for today's episode of You Know Too Much. Thank you so much to Steven. And now we all will know way too much about coffee shops, the third wave, this eighth wave, all of it.

37:33 Pamala I love that. Awesome.

37:50 Pamala I don't have the script in front of me 'cause I can't find it. So if you wanna just jump in there Yeah, go for it.

37:53 Eva I'm sorry. Yeah, you know, if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a glowing review, five stars only. Share this with someone who'd love it. You can explore more episodes, behind the scenes content at you know too much.media. Follow us wherever you get our podcasts to s keep the obsession going. Thank you so much, Steven.

38:16 Steven Thank you guys. Good to hang out.

38:16 Pamala Thank you. The best part of waking up is folders in your cup. They always had the best jingles. They did. Coffee always had the best jingles. Yeah. all right. Let me stop the recording and then we're gonna restart the recording. Eva, if you wanna drop.

38:21 Eva Ooh, gonna have to take two on that one. They did.