Her dog refused to let a customer leave the store, and the owner admitted she was right to.

0:00 Pamala But you're saying framing it dog and adventures. Okay. Lovely. all right. So what we're gonna do to just get into this is usually we have like an intro and a banter. and then we start to but really what you what you know and what you hear is hi Nicole, thanks for welcome welcome and joining the show. So much, so glad to have you here today. What do you know too much about? And then you can and then we kind of jump into it.

0:00 Eva And adventures.

0:28 Pamala And then as the conversation naturally sort of ends, we'll do a little outro script, but stay on, even though you know, we're doing like subscribe and all those kinds of words, you know, hit follow, thing, you know, and then we'll say thank you, Nicole, wave, say goodbye, we'll stop the recording, and then we'll have you do a couple of promo lines for your episode in a separate recording. So just stay on and that's how that's kind of kind of go gonna feel and go. How's that sound?

0:57 Nicole I used to do this for a living, so let's hit it.

0:59 Pamala great. I'm talking to a professional. Did I did I miss anything professional? Did I do I need to be

1:02 Nicole Semi professional. Yeah.

1:06 Eva I'm

1:08 Nicole No, no, no. this is not this is not the judgment hour, please.

1:12 Pamala well no I'm like it's always the learning hour. Yeah, always be learning hour. Be like, ladies, ladies, you forgot to tell me this.

1:13 Eva It's the it's the always be learning hour for us, especially with this project.

1:20 Nicole Is that what she wanted me to say? Dogs in Adventure? Is that is that the or Or shall I just say everything and then no, I'm just kidding.

1:25 Eva I think so. It's Yeah, exactly. Would take your pick. Which of the fifty running categories? Which is how I framed the you as a potential guest was like Nicole's gonna have twenty potential topics. Yeah.

1:38 Nicole Yeah, there was a there were like seven rubrics to get us here. So it was it was a lot, yeah. All right.

1:45 Pamala Well, it's hard being a really interesting person. I'm sorry. I'm sorry you were so interesting.

1:45 Eva But I think that yeah, that that'll be a good

1:49 Nicole Exhausting on a daily basis. I mean, this is just whatever. I mean yeah. All right.

1:53 Pamala Yeah. All right. Well, let's get into so Eva and I will have our banter. Everyone wake up. Big bright eyes. Appreciate you. Eva, you are a silly goose. And but are you a silly, but but are you a silly dog? hi Nicole. Welcome to today's show. Thank you. We're so excited to have you here.

1:53 Eva Painful. It's painful.

2:08 Eva Always always That's so Nicole

2:08 Eva Welcome.

2:17 Nicole Aye

2:17 Nicole So excited. So excited to be here.

2:25 Pamala Yeah. can you tell us what you know too much about?

2:29 Nicole I think I know too much about dogs and perhaps adventuring and perhaps adventuring with dogs, but I think we're gonna find out together, right?

2:37 Eva Mm.

2:38 Pamala Okay. I love this. Yeah.

2:40 Eva Where do we start? How did you first get into it with these adventuresome dogs?

2:46 Nicole my goodness. Well, it started in the eighties when I was a child. No, I won't go back that far. Maybe I will. I don't know. We'll s we'll we'll see. I would say that I have always been a dog person. I've always been a animal person. I was the kid who refused to play house. I wanted to play veterinary clinics. I think that pretty much says everything you need to know about five year old me.

2:55 Eva Let's go there.

3:11 Eva Yes.

3:11 Nicole I decided very early that I would not only become a veterinarian, but that I would go to vet school at Cornell University. So that also tells you a lot of things about nine year old me when I wrote that essay. I did not I did not become a veterinarian. Yeah, yeah, yeah. Totally not planning my entire life from in utero. Yeah.

3:27 Eva Super chill and relaxed. No plans for the future. Yeah. Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep. Sounds about right.

3:35 Nicole So did not become a veterinarian, but ended up many, many years later becoming a certified dog trainer. And then you know, a dog mom and a cat mom and all the all the fur kid moms.

3:35 Nicole And then I just started with my two girls that I currently have, my two large breed girls. So I have over 200 pounds of dog living in my house, and I love it. yes, wide eyes, yes. One is 95, my small one is 95 pounds, and my big one is 120. So so my small one is a giant schnauzer and standard poodle. She is the reason that I got certified as a dog trainer.

4:06 Pamala What kind of dogs are these?

4:08 Eva my goodness.

4:14 Pamala Wait, poodles are that big?

4:16 Nicole standard poodles get that big, yes. And giant schnauzers also get that big. It's a it's a

4:23 Nicole Not well known, I guess, fact about giant schnauzers in in the US, because they are a German breed and we know mini schnauzers and we know standard schnauzers, but not giant schnauzers. but they are actually military dogs in Europe. They are great protectors, they are not just smart but also clever. so when they became my heart breed and I fell in love with them, I decided that I couldn't have a dog that was smarter than me.

4:23 Nicole At least not like at least not officially. So I decided to sort of but yeah, yeah, it was like maybe behind closed doors, but let's not talk about it. so here I am talking about it. So fail. well that's great because we're in the forum for questions.

4:58 Eva Not on paper.

5:07 Eva I have so many questions, but how do you how do you here we here we are, here we go.

5:12 Pamala Wait, but what's the what's the other dog? Wait, what's the bigger dog?

5:15 Nicole yes, we can't forget about the bigger one. she is a Great Pyrenees and Commodore. two well, she's three breeds, but we won't talk about the other one because I can't even pronounce it. But majority Great Pyrenees and Commodore. They are both livestock guardian breeds.

5:15 Nicole so she is also a great protector. She looks like a giant fuzzy polar bear. Commodores are the big mop dogs that you that you see running well not often running around, but they look like giant cream colored mops. And then most people are familiar with Great Pyrenees, but they were both bred to be very independent, to guard livestock on their own and working as a team with other others in their breed.

5:38 Pamala Yeah.

5:48 Eva my goodness.

6:00 Pamala Yeah.

6:01 Nicole So people say they're stubborn, but they're actually just bred to think for themselves and not with human input.

6:03 Pamala I

6:10 Pamala Do you sort of love all those Pyrenees life s like guardian livestock videos?

6:15 Nicole Me too. Me too. Yes. Yes. So sh so she is one of those legit and they two of them have figured out how to work together. But I'm their livestock.

6:17 Pamala All those accounts. I'm like, yeah, guard those lambs.

6:28 Pamala They're like raptors.

6:29 Eva I was just I'm s really s I have I have a hundred questions, but the one I'm really stuck on at this moment is how there's so much power at the end of their leash if they're that big and you are super strong, I'm sure, but like a an a typically sized human. So how do you how do you control them?

6:55 Nicole I am six feet, thank goodness. So I haven't actually been dragged by anyone.

7:02 Eva Yeah.

7:03 Nicole Also, I did mention I'm a trainer, so you know, there is a certain level of training that has come in with both of them. So, Liesel, the giant schnauzer mix, yeah, she has a good German name because she is a good German girl. I had her since ten weeks, so we've been training since ten weeks and one day. she's not perfect, but she will not take a sister out.

7:08 Eva Mm.

7:15 Eva So

7:27 Nicole and Ruthie was a rescue and I've had her for four years now. So there is a certain level of training that she has as well. But to be clear, if we are out and they are on a leash and they decide that they wanna both run in separate directions, they could dislocate my shoulders. They haven't, but they could. And if they wanna run in the same direction, it's safer for the average bear to just let go.

7:27 Pamala Okay.

7:51 Eva Right. Yeah. And just let gosh, that power.

7:54 Nicole 'Cause there is a lot of there is a lot of force. Now I don't generally just let go. I'm also stubborn, independent, whatever, stubborn. But yes, that is a fair point and large breed, powerful dogs are not for everyone. And neither or none of these breeds I would say are beginner breeds.

8:01 Eva Sure.

8:08 Eva Mm.

8:14 Eva Mm, okay.

8:14 Nicole I don't recommend that everybody just rush out and get a livestock guardian dog, even if they have livestock to guard, by the way, because it's a very specific lifestyle and you know it takes understanding of the breed. You don't just introduce them and good luck to you and they're just guide guarding your livestock. That's not how it works. and please don't rush out, please don't Google giant schnauzer, fall in love and go get a giant schnauzer. This happens all the time when a breed comes out in a movie

8:17 Pamala Yeah.

8:32 Eva Mm-hmm.

8:40 Eva my goodness.

8:44 Nicole And then everybody's like, I want that breed and they go buy that breed and then six weeks, six months, a year later, they're all in rescue. So

8:53 Pamala Is there a f

8:53 Eva Yeah, because they're just too much.

8:56 Nicole Because they don't do their research. Yes, I'm talking to you people out there. I'm sorry that I'm being so blunt, but I really believe in, you know, doing your research on your breed and making sure that you're choosing a dog. whether you're this is not this is not an advertising for shop or adopt or you know, do do whatever, but please make sure that their breed or the breed mix that you're considering fits your lifestyle, fits your family, right? If you

8:58 Eva Yeah.

9:02 Eva That's what we're here for.

9:07 Eva Mm.

9:24 Eva Mm.

9:26 Nicole Like to sit on the couch, no judgment, but please don't go get a high energy puppy, King Cavalier, love yes, a friend sheep, for example. Like there's any number of great I want to sit on the couch with you dogs. A Belgian Malinois is not one of them, for example.

9:32 Pamala King Cavalier. Do a lap dog. King Cavalier.

9:35 Eva Yeah. Yeah.

9:41 Eva Mm.

9:44 Pamala no, no. d was there recently a movie that had a giant schnauzer in it or a Pyrenees?

9:49 Eva Yeah.

9:51 Nicole There was. And I can't tell you. Beethoven was a Saint Bernard, but yes, we're close. They're I mean they're big, but okay. there was actually I think it was a TV show, and this is how much TV I watch. I can't tell you what show it was. but there you go.

9:52 Eva Is that Beethoven? I can't think of any other dog in a movie.

9:56 Pamala Yeah, I was like Yeah, very different.

10:10 Pamala Okay.

10:13 Eva That's all right. We'll we'll figure it out with Luddy and we'll pull it put it up for for all of our fans. But that makes so much sense. Somebody sees a dog on T V, on on a movie. that seems fun.

10:16 Pamala But there was something recent. Okay. Well

10:24 Nicole It's cute, it's cool, it's this, it's that. Yeah, it did this thing which was and they don't realise like these are actors, right? The two the It was trained to do that thing.

10:33 Eva Mm-hmm. And they they're trained, yeah. What what what's one of the most surprising things that you've you've learned on your adventures with these with Ruthie and and Lisa?

10:47 Nicole so one surprising thing I mentioned, like it was nonchalant, but it was surprising to me when it first happened. So, I knew that Ruthie, who's the Great Pyrenees mix, was you know, was in her makeup to work with another dog or or another group of dogs. What I didn't realize was that that wasn't specific to another livestock guardian dog.

11:07 Eva Mm.

11:14 Nicole So the first time that we were hiking and Liesel and Ruthie worked together, no training, no in no manual, no nothing. They just figured it out. I was I was grateful because they were working together because we crossed a bear on the trail. So I was grateful, but I also was thinking after the initial shock of that's a bear, I thought, wow, they just figured out how to work together. And

11:32 Pamala Nice.

11:43 Eva Wow.

11:44 Nicole Would you like to know how they work together? Was that gonna be your next question? awesome. They were they were

11:46 Eva Please tell us more.

11:46 Pamala Yeah, yes. No, that was definitely gonna be the next question. I was like, were there maps? Did they

11:52 Eva But yeah. Telepathic. Mm-hmm. Pause. Pause only.

11:57 Nicole There was a there was a tablet, there were no thumbs, but there was some pointing. Yeah. I'm gonna ask them later. Are you guys using AI to take care of me? no, so I joke, but this is actually how it worked. So Lizel tends to run around like a crazy on the trail. Like she takes twice as many steps as the other two who are hiking. it's her nature. She always comes back around, but she's like a ping pong.

11:59 Pamala There's a lot of AI. I think there's a lot of AI involved.

12:17 Eva Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

12:27 Nicole And so she's normally out front. Sometimes she'll be next to me because she is also a Velcro dog. In this particular instance, Ruthie happened to be out front. Lizel happened to be closer to me. I didn't know what was happening immediately because they smelled the bear before I didn't smell the bear at all because I don't have those senses. I heard something rustling, assumed it was a deer, 'cause that's what we're normally up against. Ruthie will not chase a deer.

12:36 Eva Mm.

12:45 Eva Mm-hmm. Sure. 'Cause yeah.

12:48 Pamala Mm.

12:54 Eva Mm-hmm. Good.

12:56 Nicole Lizel will chase a deer out of the area. She'll say, Get out of here. We don't want you near our mom. And then she'll come back. Yes. so Ruthie alerted. She was out front, alert barked, took a stance. So a stance from a great Pyrenees is they square themselves and their tail is wagging, but not in a wagging that you want to see and then go like try to kiss their face. Don't do that. Lizel was by me.

13:01 Eva This is our space. Hmm.

13:22 Pamala Mm.

13:24 Eva With purpose. Okay.

13:25 Nicole U a wagging with purpose, exactly. Liesel was by me. She took a stance, alert bark, which is a higher bark for her. at that point I did see a shadow and I thought, hmm not necessarily deer shaped. Don't pet, not friend. Bear crossed our path far enough ahead that I wasn't worried that it was gonna turn and you know we th we're gonna be a threat to it.

13:38 Eva That's too tall.

13:44 Eva Too wide, too tall.

13:53 Nicole I r I thought immediately, are the girls gonna chase this? We just call them the girls. And I was like, This could go horribly wrong or this could go okay. First encounter, I didn't know what to do. I stopped. The girls, yeah. So I stopped. Ruthie took a couple more steps toward the bear. Livestock Guardians first instinct is to scare away. So they are not here to fight.

13:57 Eva Mm-hmm.

13:58 Pamala Yeah.

14:03 Eva my gosh. The girls

14:13 Eva Mm-hmm.

14:21 Nicole They're here to say, We are here, we will fight if we need to. But please don't make us, basically. So she gets her deepest growl and bark. She's using all of her opera singer pipes to let it be known. She is looking as big as possible and Lizel is behind her saying, Yeah, that's right. That But they but they work together in a pack normally and this this is the stance that I saw because

14:21 Eva Perfect.

14:22 Pamala Yeah.

14:27 Eva Back it up. Yeah. Be cool.

14:28 Pamala Yeah.

14:37 Eva Projecting.

14:45 Eva She will get you.

14:51 Nicole Ruthie's a a fence runner. Like she will, if there's a fence involved, she'll get up at the fence. She's the front line. That's her defensive stance. Lizel is my body girl, right? So she's on me. So she took the in-between position. She positioned herself right in front of me, facing the direction of the bear, and letting it be known that there's at least two of us and we will fight you. Once the bear didn't didn't stop, didn't

14:51 Nicole you know, just off up the mountain it went. they stayed right by me for a time, but you know, took it down a notch. They weren't yelling anymore. and then they went about their business after the threat had passed. So I didn't know that they would work together. I didn't know exactly what would happen at all. And I was so proud that day. And I didn't die by bear. Winning. Yes.

15:27 Eva Yeah.

15:32 Pamala Okay.

15:36 Eva Yeah.

15:39 Pamala Yeah. Dog and dog instincts. Yeah. Dog instincts and like yeah, dog instincts and all of those things are so incredible. I mean, having been a trainer, have you noticed this like in other realms too, where they just like you're the girls know. The girls know X, Y, and Z. Are there other examples of this?

15:39 Eva my goodness. Yep. Winning.

16:01 Nicole I probably shouldn't say this in such a public forum, but people will find out anyway, because I use Lisel to as like a temperature check for people like all the time. So if I meet you and then suddenly in the second meeting Lizel just randomly shows up. It's a hundred percent like, I'm not sure and she's gonna she's gonna tell me. And you might be like, this sounds ridiculous like how much can she know? I can tell you she knows.

16:13 Pamala Yeah. Yeah. Okay.

16:15 Eva Yeah.

16:28 Eva Mm, mm, mm.

16:31 Nicole So Lizel especially because Ruthie's so so like she sometimes it's just because she prefers, you know, something over another. There's no I haven't figured out the rhyme or reason, although if she could write or speak English, she could probably tell me and I would have to stop guessing. but Lizel Yeah, there you go. There you go. Yes. Lizel is very specific. So Lizel is nice to everyone, but she doesn't want to spend time with everyone.

16:44 Eva Sure.

16:48 Eva The AI. We're gonna call up the A the AI for Ruthie. Yeah. Yeah.

17:01 Eva Mm.

17:02 Nicole So we've had people we've been out and about and people, especially women, I don't know women like need to need to have the dog love them in my experience. And I'm just like, just relax a little bit. Like you know, as long as she doesn't hate you, it's fine. So sometimes Lisa will be like, yes, all the pets, if she sits on your foot, if she leans against you, like you're in, basically. If she's just, you know, hanging around in your area, you're fine.

17:09 Pamala Yeah.

17:13 Eva Honey.

17:25 Eva Mm.

17:26 Pamala Yeah.

17:31 Nicole If she looks at you and says, no, and walks away, I have questions. I have questions, right? It doesn't happen often. I have questions. If she barks and will not let you come near her, her sister, or me, no.

17:37 Eva That's a wrap. my goodness.

17:51 Eva Immediate dismissal.

17:52 Pamala Have you have you have you been able to prove this to be true?

17:52 Nicole Immediate dismissal. We've been in a store.

17:58 Nicole Yes. Yes. We have been in a store and she decided that there was another customer. And I mean a dog friendly. Like we weren't just, you know, we weren't breaking any rules. We were invited in, yes. and she and she thinks she's like either the mayor or she's like customer service. Yes. Like she she and she's enters the store and she's like, Yes, I work here.

18:00 Eva Tell us how. Yep.

18:11 Eva Sure, you were invited in. And she's so charming, I'm sure, just left and right.

18:11 Eva Yeah. Queen Bee.

18:26 Eva I've arrived.

18:28 Nicole I have arrived. I might be working security if Ruthie's not here. Otherwise, like I will help you shop. I will take you to checkout. Like, yeah. yeah. She can work a room, no doubt. We were in a store. Another customer came in. Immediate she was on this person. She alert barked. Not fit no, but just like she honed in. She ho she like opened the door and she she honed in.

18:39 Eva love it.

18:48 Eva On them physically or just okay, alert bark. Yep, yep.

18:57 Nicole And alert Bart. And I was like, well, what in the world? What is she alerting at? And she exactly right. Well, not that I knew of, right? She honed in and she would not let it go. She would not let this person A out of her sight. Now she knows the store owner, so she would be protective of that person as well. Would not let this person out of her sight. Bark, bark, bar, would not let it go.

18:59 Eva Mm. We're in a store. There's no bears in here.

18:59 Eva Theoretically.

19:11 Eva Yeah.

19:16 Pamala Right.

19:18 Eva Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

19:19 Pamala Mm-hmm.

19:25 Nicole I took her out of the store with apologies because it's embarrassing when your dog is like, you know, making a scene and you don't know why. Apologized, took her out. The store has glass in the front. She would not let she would not leave the vicinity. She sat outside and watched through the glass. She did not she did not calm down until the customer left, got in the car, and left.

19:28 Eva It's a little embarrassing, yeah. Disruptive. Yep.

19:29 Pamala Yeah.

19:44 Eva Mm. And that's where that power comes in. Mm.

19:55 Pamala Okay.

19:55 Nicole And that's when she took it down a notch. I went back in, I apologized again, and basically the response was, no, there are reasons that your dog was correct.

19:59 Eva Okay.

19:59 Pamala Okay.

20:11 Nicole I'll just leave it at that. I'll leave it at that because you know, because it's this is a this is a real scenario. But well, yes, and not proven guilty by Lisel, but but the the store owner confirmed that this person like actually didn't want her us to leave, because this person was on the on the Lisel list and and and for good reason.

20:12 Eva What? Huh?

20:20 Eva Innocent until proven guilty, that person shouldn't have been in that store. Right.

20:38 Pamala Has caused trouble before.

20:43 Nicole Yeah. So I'm like, I'm pretty sure what's happening And just just like whatever the dog form of judgment is, right? I don't and I don't I'm not saying the person was dangerous or anything like that, but she just knew that this was not somebody that we needed to interact with or that anybody she cared about should be interacting with. Yeah. So I tr I trust my girl.

20:44 Pamala Yeah

20:44 Eva Liesel could be some good security. Some good security there. What a queen.

20:50 Pamala Wow.

20:54 Eva Yeah.

20:55 Pamala Yeah.

21:06 Eva Amazing. What a queen.

21:09 Pamala Yeah.

21:14 Eva Bears.

21:15 Nicole Yes.

21:15 Pamala Are are there any

21:17 Eva Strangers, nefarious characters.

21:20 Pamala Are there any other sort of habits that either your so like for example, I have like a I have a mutt, but she's like a a herding breed. So sometimes I can kind of notice her hurting children or hurting humans, like at a party a little bit, very subtly. but she's just sort of like, you know, doing a thing. Now she's never been around livestock. It's just innate to her. And sort of like sort of the innate things you're talking about, your dogs.

21:37 Nicole Yes. Yes.

21:50 Pamala But because they are very specific types of dogs, are there other examples of what they do, you know, in public? Or are there any things that you've learned from them that you're like, that might work on a human? Like, you know, like, especially since you're a trainer and you notice things about dogs and their owners. And most dogs are good dogs. It's usually just like shitty owners, I would imagine. So it's not just usually training the dog, it's also somewhat kind of helping to train the human with the dog.

22:10 Eva Mm.

22:19 Eva The people typical.

22:20 Pamala So is there anything that like translates in your world from dog to human that you're like, this works, this completely works.

22:29 Nicole so there's there's a c I think there's a couple answers because there was a there were a couple parts to that question, right? So one thing that works with humans and dogs is treats. Right? So I was having a conversation with a team member who is starting potty training, her son. And I was like, I know nothing of potty training humans. Well, not much. I mean I did

22:29 Pamala Yeah.

22:41 Eva Mm, yes, that's true.

22:49 Eva So

22:57 Nicole I did participate in potty training some friends' kids and, you know, whatever. But n none that I don't have there you go. Potty learning. Yes, good. That's a different type of adventure, which I I don't take any responsibility for in humans. I just like help and then I leave because I'm the cool auntie who gets to go home before before the worst parts of potty learning. but l listening to other parents who have been through it with their kids, I did discover that

23:01 Eva We called it potty learning in our home, which was its own adventure. Yeah.

23:12 Eva Yeah. It's the best way to be.

23:12 Eva Mm-hmm.

23:27 Nicole potty learning for children and for puppies, pretty much the same. Right. So routine, get them there before they have to go, right? But at the moment where they are likely to have to go and then put a treat in their mouth basically when they do the thing. So I was like, I could totally potty train a human because I've worked with so many puppies, right? one thing I have learned from Liesel in particular.

23:32 Eva Makes sense. Yeah.

23:32 Pamala Okay.

23:38 Eva Yeah, yeah.

23:49 Eva Everybody wins.

23:57 Nicole that has been I've been trying to take on in my own personality. And sometimes I look at her, I'm like, why are you that way? And then I realize I I helped her to become that way because a confident puppy is a fearless dog. And generally speaking, if you have a confident dog, adult dog.

24:09 Pamala Mm.

24:12 Eva Mm-hmm.

24:23 Nicole aggression or those types of things that we label as humans as aggression often come from fear. So if you have a confident dog, they're not acting out and acting out of fear. So Lizel is considered to be quite stable, and she has grown up to be confident, which has fed her stability. Now she can also be overly confident.

24:28 Pamala Mm-hmm. Okay, yeah.

24:40 Eva Mm.

24:46 Pamala Okay.

24:49 Eva Yeah.

24:50 Nicole Her approach to the world is if I'm going there, everything that stands in the way between here and there should move. And I don't mean and I said everything, not everyone, not all the dogs, not all the humans, I'm talking inanimate objects as well, she believes should clear the path for her. And is she wrong? I mean right? Yes, well.

25:04 Eva Ha ha

25:11 Eva Sure. Practical. Yeah, right? I know.

25:13 Pamala Sounds like a New Yorker.

25:19 Nicole I just happen to be a New Yorker and So she will just go down her path and if there's something in her way, she will stop and look at it and give it the chance to move of its own accord. We did this the I don't know, a couple months ago now. There was a tree branch that was laying across her normal path. Not in the woods, I mean like in our near our house.

25:21 Eva Hmm. Right.

25:21 Pamala Yeah.

25:33 Eva Excuse itself from her path.

25:47 Nicole And she looked at the branch and she gave it an opportunity to move. Then she walked up to the branch, she put her forehead again it against it and she headbutted it. It still didn't move. You would think at this point, this dog says, I'll have to walk around. No. She walked directly over that thing. She yes, she almost stumbled, but she did not look down. She didn't she just walked directly over, and it wasn't a small branch.

25:57 Eva Mm. Mm. Mm. Strange.

26:03 Eva Yeah. No.

26:17 Nicole And then when she got over, she was like I could just hear her thinking like that's right. And then she kept going. And I was like, Nicole, take a note of this. I feel like humans who are on a mission need more lethal in their just day to day. 'Cause she was not deterred. And she will trip over something and look at it like it was at fault. And maybe it was, maybe it wasn't, I don't know.

26:17 Eva Goodness, Liesel.

26:22 Eva Harumph.

26:27 Eva Hmm. Truly.

26:29 Pamala Yeah.

26:38 Eva Yeah.

26:45 Eva Yeah.

26:45 Nicole But she definitely was not walking in the wrong place. That thing was in the wrong place. And I was like, Wow And sh that's how she's living her life. So

26:54 Eva That's that sturdy leadership. I love it. So good. Liesel. Mm. Right? More adventures. I love it.

27:00 Pamala Lead life with confidence, be like Liesel.

27:02 Nicole Yes. Yeah. More adventure.

27:09 Pamala are there any other elements that you feel like good? Cause you also said something in there in the beginning too of this moment when you said, you know, you sort of trained her because of just who you are. So obviously there's a natural reflection in a lot of ways. And Lisa obviously has a lot of confidence and sometimes overconfidence. But do you do you think that usually we are training our dogs to be a reflection of ourselves?

27:36 Nicole I don't know that we are purposely training our dogs to be a reflection of ourselves because I don't think that most humans are that cognizant of the energy they're sending to their dogs. You know, there's a lot of trainers that talk about the energy that you send down the leash, for example, and getting right with yourself before you walk your dog or before you take responsibility for a dog.

27:48 Eva Yeah.

27:51 Pamala Mm.

27:52 Eva Mm, mm.

27:59 Pamala Yeah.

28:01 Nicole And I I don't I wouldn't consider that I, you know, trained my dogs in my own reflection, more so that I made the conscious effort to expose them to as many things, people, situations, experiences. I mean, this is how adventuring began, as possible because socialization for a dog

28:24 Eva Yeah.

28:30 Nicole many humans believe that it is having them meet as many people or other dogs as possible. And that is that is not for every dog. If we think about us as humans, do we want to meet all the people of the world? I mean, if we're an extrovert, maybe. If we're an introvert or something in between, probably not. And definitely not all at once. And definitely not on their terms.

28:40 Pamala Mm.

28:41 Eva Right.

28:49 Eva Maybe.

28:53 Eva Right.

28:57 Nicole And forced on us, and then you know, assumptions made. do we like every human we ever met? No. I mean, if we're honest with ourselves, right? So we take a dog to a dog park, we put them in with 15 other dogs, and we go figure it out. I mean, that's my nightmare. If you took me to a human park, you know, it was like, here's 15 people you don't know, like you have to you have to meet all of them.

28:57 Eva Right.

29:07 Eva Absolutely not.

29:16 Eva Yeah.

29:24 Eva Have at it.

29:26 Nicole You have to deal with whatever they they send at you, you have to be happy about it. You gotta be wagging your tail the whole time. I'm like, no, sorry, let me out of here. Now I'm also an introvert that masquerades as an extrovert, right? So take this all with a grain of salt. But socialization is really about giving a dog as much experience as possible so that they know how to handle things.

29:33 Pamala Yeah.

29:33 Eva Mm.

29:55 Nicole when something different happens. Right? So so the girls are not surprised when we meet a bear. When dogs come out of nowhere because they were off leash and that you know what whatever happens, happens. When there's thunder. Now there are dogs who are afraid of thunder. You can you cannot socialize out of that fear. They feel it differently. Every fur takes the energy differently.

29:57 Pamala Mm.

30:05 Eva Right.

30:11 Eva Mm-hmm. Right?

30:11 Pamala Yeah.

30:16 Eva Sure.

30:18 Pamala Right.

30:21 Eva Mm-hmm. Yeah.

30:24 Nicole I had a border colleague growing up and it did not matter what you did, she was terrified of thunder. And we and you can't socialize that out of it, out of a dog. but there are things that you can prepare them for so that they are more open to new experiences, new people, new, and therefore they do not react in a negative way because it's part of their life experience and they're expecting something to be different.

30:29 Eva thing. Yeah. Sure. Sure.

30:32 Pamala Yeah.

30:44 Eva Mm.

30:50 Eva Right, right. And you've set them up to be successful in that way.

30:51 Pamala Yeah.

30:55 Nicole Well, I like to think that you've set them up for success because we don't know what's gonna happen in life in the world. And we try to be prepared for it, but we don't always prepare our dogs or our cats or you know, you know, it's not just about dogs in this regard. but and and you can give your dog confidence even if you do not feel confident. Right? But you can also use your dog to check your own level of confidence and if you don't wanna send a certain energy down the leash

30:58 Eva Mm.

30:58 Eva Yeah.

31:15 Eva Mm-hmm.

31:15 Pamala Mm. Okay.

31:20 Eva Mm, mm.

31:25 Nicole Think about it before you pick up that leash and see if you can make a small adjustment. I'm not saying you go from being scared to confident overnight, but if we're cognizant of it, we can sometimes make a shift. And even if that tiny little shift, our dog will pick up on it.

31:43 Eva Yeah. Of course. There's so many parallels to parenting too. It's like, you know, the same in many ways. I know some folks will not love to hear that, but it's so true, you know.

31:50 Nicole That's what I've heard.

31:57 Nicole But parenting is about relationship. And exactly. And all the things that you do, including communication, including affection, all those things that build that relationship. Having a dog, at least for me, and my my training background is in positive reinforcement and games based training. So we say well, my company says we play the g train the brain by playing the game.

31:59 Eva Mm-hmm. And communicating and what are you what are you putting out in the world? Yeah.

32:11 Eva Yeah.

32:17 Eva Mm-hmm.

32:19 Pamala Mm.

32:27 Eva Ooh, I love that.

32:27 Nicole So we we play games that then reinforce our training. So it's not just about sit and the games that we play are about building closeness and trust and relationship. Because who do you want to do things for and be around those you have built relationships with? Right? So people ask me, Well, how do you know your dogs will never run off?

32:28 Pamala nice.

32:32 Eva Mm.

32:46 Eva People you have fun with, yeah. Yeah.

32:50 Pamala Yeah.

32:52 Nicole if you're on an o you know in an off leash environment and they're, you know, Liesel's ping ponging around the woods. Because first of all, Lizel's only fear in life is to lose me. And I have a relationship with her. So she prefers to be with me as opposed to not with me. So she's ping ponging, but she knows exactly where I am. Now, she also has a tracking collar, so I know exactly where she is too, by the way. But she knows exactly where I am.

32:52 Eva Hm.

32:58 Eva Mm-hmm.

33:06 Eva Mm-hmm.

33:06 Eva Yeah.

33:11 Pamala Mm-hmm.

33:16 Eva Shre also. It goes both ways.

33:16 Eva Mm-hmm.

33:21 Nicole If I whistle or I use my outside, you better get your butt here in two seconds call, she gets her butt here in two seconds. Right? and she wants to know where I am because we are in a relationship. We love each other. She wants to go home with me. She doesn't want to be lost. You know, she wants to adventure, but within boundaries that we have agreed together. And Ruthie too.

33:27 Pamala Right.

33:27 Eva Yep. Mm-hmm.

33:36 Eva Yeah. Yeah. Right. No.

33:45 Eva And together. Mm-hmm. Mm hmm. Yeah. Sure. Like people.

33:45 Pamala Yeah.

33:49 Pamala My gosh. Yeah.

33:49 Nicole It's just that great pyramids have a different approach. So if I tell them to sit at the same moment, Lazel's butt hits the ground. Sit. And she's waiting for her next thing that she's supposed to be doing. Ruthie says, I hear you. I know how to do that. I'm thinking about whether I'm gonna do it now or later. I'm considering all my options. I'm checking the wind speed. I'm che mm what what's that smell? And then she's like

33:58 Eva Mm.

33:58 Eva She's ready.

34:08 Eva Considering

34:13 Eva Mm-hmm, mm-hmm.

34:19 Nicole I have decided to take you up on your offer to sit. I will now begin the process of putting my butt on the ground. Now, with a grain of salt, because asterisk footnote, Ruthie is a senior. We're not sure how old, but at least eight years old. Ruthie has osteoarthritis in both knees. She wears like brace you know, we don't just ask Ruthie to sit for kicks. So So we do understand that if Ruthie's like, I I prefer not to, we go, you know what, girl, you do you.

34:23 Eva I love it.

34:23 Eva Mm-hmm.

34:32 Eva Mm-hmm.

34:36 Pamala Hmm.

34:37 Eva my goodness.

34:41 Eva Sure.

34:45 Eva Consideration.

34:49 Eva Fair. Ruthie. Ugh, lucky. I love it.

34:49 Nicole Fair, right?

34:51 Pamala Yeah, absolutely. So if somebody wants to go down this rabbit hole with you of getting deeply enamored and have the same joy in their animals and want to adventure, what would you recommend to them? How how do they get started?

35:11 Nicole my gosh. So I think first of all think about I'm assuming they already have a dog. Are we starting from like J no we don't know. Okay. Well I'll go back. If you don't already have a dog, do a lot of research. Consider what combinations of breeds are right for you. If you decide to go to a shelter, you can you know, the the staff there will usually know

35:19 Eva Yeah. Maybe.

35:19 Pamala Maybe yeah. Maybe.

35:27 Eva There we go.

35:31 Eva Mm-hmm.

35:38 Nicole more about the dog's personality even if you don't know exactly what breeds they are and obviously their their configuration of face and body and fur and all those things will give you hints. find out as much as you can about either the breed and or the dog that you are considering bringing into your life. and also consider that we are called the Everyday Adventure Girls because we're not about having these big epic cinemographic

35:43 Eva Right.

35:48 Eva Mm.

35:55 Eva Wonderful.

36:07 Nicole like adventures. We don't we don't have to be homeward bound. We don't have to be in IMAX. We don't have we're we don't have to we don't have big budgets. We're not those Instagram, you know, accounts where you're like, how long did it take to film this real? With I mean and and kudos to them for having the time, the energy, the money, the camping in their like whatever they're doing, amazing. And I watch all of them. I watch all the livestock guardian dog breed like

36:09 Pamala Homeward bound. Okay.

36:10 Eva Mm mm mm. Was that the movie?

36:18 Eva Mm-hmm.

36:23 Eva Ha ha

36:23 Eva Yes.

36:31 Eva Somebody's gotta do it.

36:36 Nicole You know, reels, I watch all of them. I don't have the necessity to live all of them. I have other things I need to do in my life, right? And not an unlimited budget or brand you know, partnerships or anything like that. We talk about being the everyday adventure girls, not just because we try to adventure every day. We try to get, you know, do something together every day, whether it's outside or inside, but we try to bring adventure into our everyday.

36:38 Pamala Yeah.

36:39 Eva Mm.

36:39 Eva Fair. Mm-hmm.

36:49 Eva Right.

36:57 Eva Mm-hmm.

37:03 Nicole So yes, we go out in the rain and the snow and all those things, and we're the crazy people as everybody else is driving in. We are in the Subaru driving out, right? Because that's when it's fun. Everybody's like, my gosh, it's snowing. We're like, my gosh, it's snowing, get out there. but if we can't get out, we bring adventure into our everyday. We play games, we build relationship on the daily.

37:04 Eva I love that.

37:13 Eva Mm-hmm. Yep. Yep.

37:14 Pamala Yeah.

37:20 Eva Let's go.

37:25 Eva Mm.

37:29 Nicole I'm always watching them and trying to figure out like what's gonna bring us both joy today. And the thing about a dog is they're joyful when you're joyful. They're joyful when they are with you in the way that they enjoy being with you. So Lazel is is like most joyful when she's like on me. She would share my skin if it was biologically possible, right? Ruthie runs hot. I mean they both run hot, but Ruthie runs hot hot.

37:29 Eva Mm.

37:39 Eva Yeah.

37:39 Pamala Yeah.

37:43 Eva Mm-hmm.

37:48 Eva Yeah.

37:52 Eva I love it.

37:57 Eva Mm.

37:59 Nicole So like she'll cuddle by the 30 seconds at a time. And then it's like, please check in in 30 seconds and see how my temperature's going. It's not that I don't it's not that I love you less, but I might need some, we call it Ruthie time. Ruthie goes and does Ruthie things, right? So she'll be across the room. She's still engaged, she's still spending time, but she's over there. Whereas Liesel's like on the face. so part of it is what is adventure mean to you? It doesn't have to mean the same thing.

38:02 Eva Sure.

38:06 Eva my goodness.

38:06 Eva Love it.

38:06 Eva Mm. Sure. Yeah.

38:19 Pamala my god.

38:21 Eva Love it.

38:25 Eva Mm-hmm. Yeah.

38:27 Pamala Yeah.

38:27 Nicole And before you go out and adventure, check your relationship with your dog or dogs. Right? The reason why we adventure so well together is because we get along in the house. I know that they are going to listen. I know what their body language means. So I know if they're not feeling comfortable, if they don't love this environment, if they'd rather do something else. Because when we're out there, they're not gonna tell me those things.

38:33 Eva Hmm.

38:39 Eva Right.

38:46 Pamala Mm-hmm.

38:53 Eva Mm.

38:53 Eva Right.

38:57 Nicole As readily. Like if I say let's go and they go, we'd prefer not to, and I say let's go again, guess what? They're going. Because if I'm going, they're going. So you know, I could be like, Let's jump in this volcano, and they'd be like, and then Lisa would be like, Well, if you're going in, I'm going in. I mean, by the way, this is stupid, but I'll see you at the bottom.

38:59 Pamala Mm-hmm.

39:05 Eva Right.

39:05 Pamala Yeah.

39:16 Eva Let's go.

39:21 Eva I love it.

39:22 Nicole So so know each other before you get out in the adventure. So you know what the message is that they're sending you. And then the way that you continue to build trust is listening to the message. You know, if Liesel doesn't want to go in the water because the current is maybe just a little bit too much, then we're not going in the water. If Ruthie doesn't want to go up that hill, we're not going up that I don't need to know if her knee is hurting or if she just like there's s I don't have any idea.

39:22 Pamala Got it.

39:26 Eva Mm.

39:34 Pamala Yeah.

39:41 Eva Mm.

39:51 Nicole You know, we have not gone places and found out that that particular area had a lot of rattlesnake activity. And I was like, you know what, girls? Good for you. Because I would have never guessed it. But something about whatever the snakes were giving off, the girls were like, We don't need to go over there. I was like, Great. Yeah.

40:08 Pamala Yeah.

40:10 Eva No thank you. Yeah. Just the headline works. Yeah. But you gotta build that trust. Ooh, Snake Hill. Sounds

40:11 Pamala Snake Hill. Snake Hill. Ugh.

40:18 Nicole Yeah, we don't do snake heel. but yes, you have to build that trust and you have to be willing to listen to your dog, not just expect that they listen to you. Because what you give them, they will give you right back.

40:20 Eva Slithery. Yeah.

40:29 Pamala Yeah. Aww.

40:29 Pamala Yeah, that's beautiful. Lovely.

40:34 Eva It seems so simple. Yeah. Beautiful. No, it works. Yeah.

40:36 Nicole I think I didn't answer the question, but Okay, good. I forgot what the question was halfway through I'm not gonna lie.

40:38 Pamala No, I think that was great. No, that was perfect. And honestly, if we could just use if we could actually just use all of that on our personal relationships, that would be also great with other humans. Like we can do this. but yeah, this has been a really wonderful conversation. Nicole, thank you. I mean, that's it for today's episode of You Know Too Much. thank you so much, Nicole. Now we know way too much as well.

40:47 Eva Right.

40:47 Eva Yes. It's all we need.

40:50 Nicole Hundred percent. A hundred percent.

41:07 Pamala So if you enjoyed this episode, please subscribe, leave us a glowing, shining, five-star review, and share it with someone you'd love who'd love it. Explore more episodes and behind the scenes content at you know too much.

41:20 Eva Follow us wherever you get our podcasts to keep the obsession going. Thank you so much, Nicole. This was wonderful.

41:27 Nicole Thank you for having me. Such a pleasure to talk about one of my joys.

41:29 Pamala Yeah. I just also want to let you know, my my husband brought me back a pin that is a little fat Shiba Inu with an Al Pastor stick. You can't see it, but I wore it for you. I it for this episode. I do too. I know. I've never had one either, but they look like little foxes. I'm like, I want a little fox dog.

41:30 Eva Thank you. Ugh.

41:41 Eva It's so good.

41:44 Nicole I love that. I love a Shiba Inu, by the way. I've never had one but I I'm so fascinated by that breed.

41:46 Eva Just

41:53 Eva There's so there's a celebrity one at the laundromat around the corner from me. He's crazy. He's he's got a line of of adoring fans frequently. It's cool. Yeah. I'll ask. Los is mad. my goodness.

41:53 Nicole Yeah.

41:59 Nicole Gosh. I'm going there next.

42:04 Pamala Sure, maybe it's this pin line. Maybe I don't, maybe it's the pin line. don't worry. My dog's looking at me like, why are you talking about other dogs? so bad. All right, well, thank you, thank you, thank you. This was brilliant and lovely. We so appreciate you coming and sharing this with us. Thank you. Bye. Bye.

42:12 Nicole Yeah, seriously. Worst episode ever, Mom.

42:24 Eva Yes, that was great, Nicole. Thank you. Thanks. We'll see you next week, everyone. Bye.

42:24 Nicole Thank you for having me.